Cameron Holt: $100 Per Musician Per Hour Is the Floor

Good morning. How you doing?

I'm okay. How are things out in LA this morning?

They're doing good. I'm just getting started over here, sorry if I'm still waking up a little bit. Hey,.

Same. That's why this is not a video podcast.

Thank you for that. I appreciate it. No, yeah, just check some of them out. I really liked it and so appreciated you just kind of asking and bringing those, like, yeah, I'd love to talk to you for now and just kind of. Kind of have some fun with it and see, yeah, if there's anything I can share that is of interest that either helps you or is helpful. Just the community, you know, I really. I really do enjoy that.

I want to talk about the tuba. Tuba players, you know, they don't really compete with guitarists for gigs, right?

Yeah,.

Not.

A lot of intersection.

So who's actually on your call list, like, and how did you get on theirs?

So, for me, a lot of my call list is based off my university network. And so I'm currently in graduate school. I'm working my doctorate. I live in Southern California, but I'm enrolled at the University of Colorado, Boulder. I was there full time for a few years while I was doing coursework and exams. And now that I'm just doing project work, I chose to move back here. Before that, I got my bachelor's and my master's into my performance at the University of Southern California Fight On Trojans. And so that network is so strong that is where, you know, as far as, like, those call lists go, it's people that were either directly affiliated with that university at one point in time or were tangentially affiliated with that university that are also active in the area. I had also done some work with the Disneyland Band pre-Covid. And so that. That was another network that people that I ran into on the job. Most of my work can really be attributed to those two sources. As far as the network and those call lists, as far as my own and likewise as far as the people that I call, they tend, even if it's in only like a very brief sense, it usually does have that common thread.

In usc. I've talked to lots of people about their experiences with college education. They obviously taught you how to become Dr. Tuba. And that would be an awesome stage name, by the way. But in terms of music business, this is something that I've encountered on other episodes where some colleges focus entirely on, let's say, music pedagogy. The technique, maybe even the music history, the music theory. But Not a lot of touch on music business, like how to get it get out there.

In classic music. I would say most universities do that. It's very rare to find a program that actually teaches you anything about the industry in a substantial manner.

How about usc? Where do we rank there?

USC is a very special case. They actually do a very good job at that. I think a lot of that is because you do have a lot of the professors there are engaged in freelance type of work in addition to their day jobs of the LA Philharmonic and the studio session. Just those small little day jobs they have, as well as the opportunity in LA to play not just in the classical field, but in non classical settings as well. You get really hands on experience. And so you're actually getting out into the community and getting some and playing and then able to come back on Monday like, hey, I had this gig, it went this way and they'll be able to kind of coach you as you go. I had trouble collecting a payment or I didn't know how to approach a client with this stuff. And sometimes they just go, yeah, it sucks. You just learned a hard lesson. Well,.

That's really actually quite admirable because it's one of the things I see with lots of musicians. They'll take a gig, they'll play the gig, spike the football, we're done. And so it sounds like there's a bit of a retrospective or review process that goes on after a gig at usc and you kind of,.

It's not baked into the curriculum. A lot of that comes so when you study classical music, you have a weekly lesson, you know, an hour, one one. And usually that's like, for me it's about the tuba and tuba pedagogy and the concertos and the solo repertoire. Like, what are you working on? And I would very frequently take that time to talk with my mentor, Doug Tornquist, who's the big studio tubist here in LA. He's on most of the films, TV and video games corporations, as you hear the last 20 years. And so that was always really big, that mentorship and just that kind of debrief, especially after something or if I was trying to get it, figure out a gig and work through that, you know, he'd be really. I would talk to him about that side of it. It's not baked into the curriculum though. It's kind of an unofficial part of that curriculum. In the classical major in focus now, USC actually does have a music industry major and I even have a popular music major. It's one of the things that sets that program apart and those programs, my understanding is that stuff is a little bit more commonly taught as part of the curriculum. That's a big belief in mind. And so part of my doctorate is to become a professor myself. I was a TA at a major university for years. I'm more and more of the belief that those are lessons that in a post Covid musical landscape are more necessary than ever to be teaching our students not just how do you play well, but playing well is important, but it's one of the less important parts of this job. As opposed to do you know how to actually drum up work? And can you actually support yourself and can you. Can you work in this business? A lot of.

Right,.

Yeah. A lot of it is experience based. You know, you can only teach so much of it. But that was my experience. I'm going to talk kind of ill about Colorado just for a moment here. That was not an emphasis of that program at all. They did have the entrepreneurial center for Music headed BY the director, Dr. Jeffrey Nytch, who I have a lot of respect for. And I actually did work for about a year in that program as a booking coordinator, they called it. The gigging coordinator was a booking job. And I would connect local student musicians with gigging opportunities in the country, kind of serve as an intermediary and then turn it over to them. Like, great, Hey, I got the hard part out of the way. They already pitched the rate. I vetted them for you. Like, there's your training wheels now you're kind of on your own. Oh, hi, Gracie left the door open.

Cat. Yeah,.

She's very sweet. And so like. So that was a supplementary program by another director. But I was also surprised at how little role and influence that they had among the rest of the brass department. For example, something that when I did have that position, I really did try to bring to that brass department and found, especially with our younger students, a lot of disinterested. Coming from my background of LA and the USC network, I just remember thinking like, you guys, you don't understand just how important this stuff is. You know, it's. We can talk about auditions all day, but you know, those days of like an audition determining your future, you know, that's not. That is not the career path 99.9% of us are going to take, you know.

Right.

And we kind of treat it like that's the only career path. And that's becoming more and more of a disservice to our students today.

Definitely. Well, let's get down to some brass tacks if we can. What's a tuba gig actually pay compared to what people assume it pays? I know you target roughly, you said in the show question primary like 100 an hour of playtime, but what's a tuba gig pay compared to what people like assume it pays?

It's a good question what people assume it pays. I wouldn't, I couldn't really speak to that as far as the two of gigs that I play. It varies, you know, like, you know, I did a low paying gig for 250. That was an hour rehearsal and an hour of gig itself. But there was also some travel time. And I remember thinking like, ooh, that's not a great rate because it's actually like not just two hours but it's two days, you know, like two separate sessions. Especially you know, like I would have wanted to do something like that more about 200 per day. I do a lot of polka work in Oktoberfest, you know, play in like a Bavarian rock band. We do the whole touring season, we do a whole touring season from September all the way into November. And I think my opening show this year I'm getting about 500 for a three hour show. And so it, when it pays really well, it can pay really well. You know, I did like a beer convention in that like convention center. It was like this big Budweiser thing. And that was mostly corporate gig. It's a lot of hurry up and wait kind of standing still. But I think I was paying, gosh, I think I paid 400 a day. And I really only did maybe about an hour's worth of substantial playing work during that time. So when the gigs are there and when you're in the right network and working with the right booking agent or a contractor, they pay way, they pay in such a way that it can be somewhat sustainable. I've gotten to the point where I'm not really looking for the hundred dollar gig anymore. I mean I think 10 years ago that wasn't really sustainable, let alone. And I do see, you know, because I'm active on all like the Southern California gigging opportunities are looking for. You know, it's like I'm very constantly scoping out and I'm pretty surprised at just some of the budget stuff that comes through in terms of the offer. And what happens is people are, they're just, they're wanting so much to play or they need the work so much that they'll take anything. I'm very pro union and so there's gonna be a union prototype point, but kind of that collective marketing and that kind of stance of like, we're not going to take the 100, 150, and even the. The $200 gig. When you're asking us to commit a whole day's work plus the prep as a musician, you know, the prep time that goes into it when you. An hourly rate and you're coming in below minimum wage for skills that we've had to develop over the course of an entire lifetime to be, you know, that the pain needs to reflect that. And so that I mentioned in our little questionnaire here, the hundred dollars an hour actually came from the Entrepreneurial center for Music in Colorado, Boulder, the university. That was the guideline written by that director. It's like, hey, you know, what we recommend to clients is that it's $100 per hour per musician. So people are like, hey, we're looking for a band to play, you know, but we have $500. Great. We're asking for two to three hours of playtime for five people. You're getting, you know, 100 bucks a person. That's less than $100 an hour. When you start breaking it apart like that 500 is really low that they need to be paying double, triple that for what they're asking for. They want you to show up for five minutes, like, okay, but you know that. And then that is the nature of the market today. And especially with inflation in the post Covid world, like, the rates need to reflect that. And I think oftentimes we're slow to negotiate or ask clients or explain that to them. I found that there's a way to work with clients that you don't have to be disrespectful. But you know, when they come through and they want to hire, but they're well under budget, it's like, well, here's what we could do. You know, it's like. But like, if you wanted like a few minutes of prelude music for your event at the very beginning, we could talk about that. But if you want a full band, it would cost you like a thousand, fifteen hundred to two thousand for the night. But, you know, there's also a duo, so you can take the same rate and split it fewer ways or even play solo background show where their budget doesn't change, but you're working within the confines of their budget to make, like, actual equitable pay possible. You know,.

It makes me want to play wedding ceremony, just keys and tuba.

At. At the weddings they're really. It's fun. I was just at a friend's wedding who's a trouble player I worked with in Boulder and they'd rasputet and playing through the whole prelude. It was great. It was beautiful.

It's awesome. It's awesome. You mentioned a reference I hadn't heard before. The Entrepreneurial center in Boulder. I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to look that up. That's a very interesting resource to check out.

Yeah, they have the website up. It's connected to the university specifically. It's a department within that university in Colorado Boulder. But I worked there for a year in addition to my TA ship at the brass department. And it was really practical experience because it was. The job was the CU gigs coordinator. And so they had a good system set up. I just came in and refined it where clients from local communities, plural, could submit requests to have student musicians come and play their events. And that was everything from weddings to cocktail hours to children's birthday parties and everything in between. And part of that is when you sign up for this, you know what you're getting with student and says, can I bring that number up for student musicians who are young, who are less experienced, that when you hire, you know, as a client, you're taking on some risk for them. We recommend $100 per hour per.

Minute. Sure.

That is a market value. And so that is. And we're talking more in the realm of classical music. But I mean as far as just working musicians and performers, I view all of us as being deserving of that. Right. But we also need to be able to ask for that rate and negotiate that rate and say, Well, I have $200. So it's like, okay, well you know, we could do like a two hour solo gig or I can bring my buddy and we'll play for an hour and we'll walk away with 100 bucks if we want to. If it's for one hour and you know the songs, you can do it without a whole lot of prep time. Like, okay, you know, it's 100 bucks more than you had. You can gauge whether or not that's worth it to you at that point.

But.

Playing for like a whole night for 100 bucks and you know, a beer.

Which brings me to a fun question before we move past your progression, but have you ever lowballed your on a rate because you didn't know what else was out there for tuba specifically, has that happened to you where you've lowballed Yourself?

I think so. Especially my younger career. You know, I'm thinking this happens a lot when you're like, an undergrad and you're. So it's like ages 18 to 22. Because one of the very specific things we're taught in my background is say yes to everything.

Right.

That's also how you get experience, is going out there and playing and it's. And yeah. So the band will rename Nameless just because there is some branding associated with it. I got so much practical experience playing sousaphone, the marching tuba.

With.

This band, and that experience actually did add a lot to the value. At the time, I didn't really think about it that way, but looking back, you know, because it just got me out playing in front of people, simple set, all memorized and just kind of laying it down. That paid 40 bucks a gig. 40 Bucks and dinner. From what I heard, they're still compensating that way. And that was not great in 10 years ago, let alone today. They're like, that's as far as this, because it is student musicians. But again, kind of going to the Boulder market just because you have student musicians, you still need to start with the rate. The $100 per musician per hour is a starting rate. That's the mentality that I really try to share and shift and explain to clients. It's like, oh, well, you know, there's two. Like, I had one client reach out, and they're like, hey, I want to. Like, they. Very few people actually ask for. They'll pay them exposure. Like, it's such a task that you seldom, like, hear it verbatim those words out loud. I did hear it once, and I had to really sit down and explain to that person. It's like. Or he says, like, oh, it's for their portfolio. I want them to play for this thing. It's like, so you need to understand that's nothing. And any musician, they're deserving of a paycheck. And so this other band. Yeah. And I would take gigs all the time because it was like, well, I am getting experience, and I'm just getting out there, and I'm enjoying what I'm doing. So it's 40 bucks. It's more than what I had. It's 40 more bucks than I had going into the day. But as I've gotten older and as I've had to consider my career and my bills and my rent payments and all the things that go into being an adult, that is. It's just unsustainable. You can't be giving your.

Well, let's just talk cost of business. So what's the low end range nowadays? I'm afraid to ask low end range to high end range of tubas these days.

So for me, what I can tell you is that my horns are. Were purchased at a value of about 8,000. And so those a combination of selling the very first horn I've had to finance with a personal loan actually, you know, with my student loans as studying as a music major that was included in my student expenses and those, that's a pretty good cost for a professional model horn. If you're really savv that maybe you can find what you're looking for. Five to six. If we're talking brand new, we're often talking, gosh, it can be 12 to 20 and more. In some cases there is kind of a large gap. And so my horns were both used before buying them. Like it's. There's a difference between if it's factory made or handmade, but at the low end, you're talking a minimum of $5,000 realistically per horn. And I have multiple horns for multiple jobs that, you know, for my, I play my small h. For the polka work, the standing work, my chamber music work, my solo work, I have the bighorn for my large ensemble work, my orchestral work, my wind ensemble work. And they serve very important functions, even if one of them gets more used needing both of them as an investment in. And so that's another part of it is like, okay, so there's your cost entry, there is your investment. And then I'm going to take a $40 gig and spend six hours.

Exactly, exactly. And that's kind of what I get to is. And anybody can pull up Sweetwater and just Google tubas and you'll see a range of 5 to 12,000, et cetera. But that's the point I would make is that I think with a piece of equipment like that, the cost of the return on investment in your gigs and the cost of goods, cost of production, it becomes more of a reality. So it's kind of important to. Speaking of that, walk me through getting that thing to a gig. A little bit of a humanity walk, stroll, if you will. What does load in actually cost you in like time, gas, gear, you know, what do the logistics look like?

It depends on the gig. So for a brass quintet gig or any kind of chamber music. When I use the word chamber music, I mean small ensembles like be like a trio or quartet or anything in Between, I like just brass quintet. Very common format for us because it's all acoustic. The loading is actually not too bad. The tuba, you wear it as a backpack. Comes with a gig bag. And so, you know, people, I think a common question. You're like, how heavy is that? It's like. It's this big old hunk of metal. It's downstairs. I guess this is video for you and means, but it'll be audio. So I was like, I don't need to bring it up here and show it to the camera. But it's so. It's big, but it's also very hollow. That's kind of the point of that instrument, is how it creates the resonance. And so while it's bulky, it's not 80 pounds. You know, it's closer to 20 to 30. You know, the big one is closer to 40 with it on the back, and probably even 30 to 35 if I were to really put it on the scale. And so walking to a brassman tech gig, I have one of those, usually the smaller horn on my back, a music stand in one hand. And then if I have my own music that I need to bring, or so much of it is iPad these days, I'll usually have, like, a bag or a satchel kind of draped around me, and so I can do it all in one trip. That's really important for those very few gigs where I do need to bring both horns. That doesn't happen to me a lot, but it happens to some of my colleagues and my mentor for sure. You actually get a little cart for one of them. You wear the big one on your back, and you take the small one in a cart and you kind of roll it behind you. Remember in college, you know, because we needed both horns every single week to play them for the master class and everything, you'd be wearing one and be, like, kind of leaning and screwing up your back. And, you know, I remember, like, oh, God, it's so bad for you, looking back on it. But I'm also pretty good about. Okay. You know, like, I'm 31. I turned 31 this year, and I don't feel particularly like my body's falling apart, but it's, you know, like, I do need to take care of myself because I do see the damage that my instrument can do to the human body.

Yeah,.

Posture problems, the way we play, the way we kind of drape over the instrument with our arm can cause back problems. And so if I'm walking into a gig and I'm carrying something I'm like, okay, let me do it in one trip where I know I'm not going to be hurting myself just to get there. I could kind of do that when I was 21. To be like, yeah, I'm a team player. Versus like I did a, a workshop years ago overseas that was. I didn't have the gig bag out of hard case because I had to go on the plane. And so now we're talking it's well over £50 or right about £50. But it can't be on the back. Has to be lugged around. When we got there, were staying in a cabin and then it was, you know, 20 minute walk to the site. It was a beautiful walk by a river. Like, oh my gosh, it was serene. But we got there and I kind of sat him down and was like, so I need to leave this on site. I'm not carrying this back and forth every day.

Right.

But I cannot commit to doing that. Like, that is simply an ask. That is just.

I was just going to ask you. Is there a moment you almost said no to a gig because of the instrument itself and the logistics.

As far as the saying no to a gig because of the instrument itself, I wouldn't say that if there was logistics. Definitely some travel time. You know, it's like, hey, you know, we need you to drive like two, three, four hours out. And then they wouldn't offer like any kind of overnight stay and we have to drive back. And then I didn't have an option, you know, because I've been flexible in that point. Only if I had family in the area. And I was like, okay, great, well I can see my mom stay in the guest room and kind of turn that into an overnight trip. Like I would prefer that they shouldn't become compensating, something like that. But. But I can work around that only because it's not actually inducing much more of a cost to me personally, very specifically for that kind of a reason. With the band I think we've talked about with my polka band, we get some work up in the Bay Area and I think last year we did not do our gig up in the Bay Area. That was part of it is that also required a rental of a van, you know, because I don't care together. Because it was just the gas cost, especially these days is getting so severe.

Sure.

Multiplying it by five, which is eating the budget so heavily, it's like, okay, well, by the time we get there, they don't want to pay more. But they're also wanting to bring us up from la. That's one way for us to minimize the cost. It was just. It was beginning to get too complicated. That has very little to do with the instrument itself as much as just the general, like budget versus travel time versus travel distance.

I want to talk about what you said earlier about, you know, the effect on your body. Because I did march with a euphonium. I've played keyboard. At one point my keyboard was £75 and I would put it on my shoulder in that room. Needed surgery. So. Yeah, but are you doing anything different these days to kind of accommodate that? I want to say exercise routine, but I don't know.

Moving a little slowly today. I was at a body pump class yesterday. I'm hobbling around today. Really kicked my butt. I'll tell you fully recommend it for anyone who's never been, but so that's something. The physicality is so important. So tuba, the way I gig and perform, it's so much more than just the sit down shows. I do a lot of stuff on my feet. I do a lot of stuff standing. And so when I was younger, I would just kind of freely carry the instrument, the smaller instrument, the smaller f tuba. And you know, looking back, I'm like looking how it was just like I would see photos of me playing and just the wonky ways I would be standing and propping against my knee and leaning forward and hunched over to just you. Because I'm an hour three or four of a show and I'm just like, you know, because these festival shows are like, they're brutal, they're all day, fun, but brutal. Now I use a harness, something that it clips onto kind of like a saxophone where it just sets on the body. Still you carry that weight. You have to be aware of your center of gravity. That's nothing. But bringing your physical fitness into that role is really important. And so yeah, like from last season to this season, I've had more just in general physical fitness skills. I've been on a bit of a weight loss journey, but I'm also noticing the fact that, oh, I can stand more comfortably. I'm not having to force my way through the show right now that I can really stand with some. With some power and some comfort. And that makes a tremendous difference. Eventually will come a day like so much of this band is that we're high energy, we're honest, our feet and honestly, it makes a huge difference. And that's certainly no dig at My colleagues who sit down when they play these shows, it's more common to do that. And there's a reason they do that, is because it's so hard in the body. I'm eventually going to hit that point myself and I'm doing what I can right now while I can accommodate that. Knowing that, yeah, no, it's, I'm going to hit that point eventually.

That's a great message for anyone. And I think it's not just the tuba player, but it's good we're hearing it from a Tuba player who's 31. Yeah. Because your physical, in my experience now lately, at first 52, is my physical is creeping into my emotional and mental. You know, I won't attribute my bad mood to my physical, even though I should. I'll assume I'm just not good at what I do and get all doom spirally and. And it's often because I haven't slept, I haven't eaten, you know, I've. I've maybe partaken a little bit too much the day before. So it's really an important point. You're in la. Session work, film, tv, orchestral subs, wedding bands, marching programs, you know, which one actually pays the bills and which one just looks good on paper.

So as far as like where one of my biggest money making things is, it is really the polka band. It's seasonal work. So if It went 12 months out of the year, I'd be sad. Let me tell you, it's good work when it's there, it's. It comes very focused and so I'm getting ready for that. So we're at the time of recording this, you know, it's late July going into August. And my shows this year actually starting as early as August 30th. 30Th is my period. We're doing a private party out in Beverly Hills and then it's going to be consistent all the way into November. And the private parties are fun. They usually pay well. I can't remember the rate off the top of my head for this one, but I said yes to it and we did one years ago, they like flew out a private Bavarian pretzel chef. Like we're talking just like people with a budget. So it's good. But. And I'll tell you best, it almost, it kind of ruined the crappy Oktoberfest pretzels you actually see at the festivals. Like the master produced American wines. Because like,.

Yeah,.

Let me tell you, the real deal is it's A spiritual experience.

Yeah. We'll pause our diet restrictions on that day for sure.

Oh, God. Yeah. No. By the end of the Oktoberfest, none of us can even, like, look at beer anymore. It's like I need a different product or something. I've done nothing but lager and fruit culture. Anyway, as far as what my. What types of gigs I'm getting outside of that, I've been kind of surprised that a lot of my calls have been around the sousaphone. And so I'm a classically trained player. That's where my education is. But I've always done a lot of commercial work and kind of, to your point, like la, it's so much opportunity, so different right now. In my field, a lot of the work that is available is on the sousaphone is in the second line brass bands or the funk brass bands, however you want to kind of conceptualize that. And so on the 4th, I actually really cool. It was a great day for me at a double header. I had a brass tech gig out in the Riverside area, drove back, and I did Susan at Dodger Stadium with a wonderful local band that I'm on the sub list for. And I know the. The player I'll name Drop them Blow Brass run by Indy Anderson. We went to school together at usc, and she's one of those. She's the one to look out for. She's amazing. But what I'm noticing more and more in tuba world is that sousaphone is offering work that the classical field simply is not. Because even in la, the classical freelancing is in very tough shape right now. There's just not enough work. The studio work and how the contracts are, they're not as lucrative as they used to be. So a lot of those players have kind of. They're still working in those top fields, but they've also absorbed some of the work in the next tier down that traditionally, like grad students and young emerging professionals were trying to get in on. So there's even less to go around.

We smelled of this before. We talked about AI. Do you think that studio work for classical has been affected by the fact that you can get a lot of that done with a prompt? Now?

That's certainly. It's a lot of the debate and the conversation in the union hall. And I'm not an active union member. I was years ago when I was in the Disney band. And I do want to rejoin. So I will always speak very highly of the afm, American Federation of Musicians Union. It's one of the Biggest talking points right now. Everyone's very scared of it because it is really one of these industries where it's the exact. Like studios are a great example. They are very actively trying to give jobs to AI that many people have relied on historically, even outside of AI, the contracts have been renegotiated. That's more of a streaming era development than AI. And AI has just been a massive leap, kind of in the wrong direction artistically. If you're replicating music, and I say that word very specifically, replicating music for the AI, it really is, I find it to be a very unartistic thing to do. You know, when you ask yourself like, what is music? What does it add culturally to humanity? AI at best, in its best possible form, can only replicate and borrow, never truly create. So in that sense there will always be a very important need for artists. The problem is in commercial aspects. They're not looking at the need for artistry as much as like what is the commercial value? What is the lowest investment cost we have. Because the investment cost a major studio has to bring in an 80 person orchestra for a week of sessions to film for this project and the composer, it's a massive amount of overhead. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. And so trying to outsource some of that to AI to bring costs down, especially when the movie industry and cinema has been suffering, you can see the through line in a marketing sense, in a capital sense, but it's so concerning that you, when you start to replace musicians, and we're not fully there yet, but that's very clearly an end goal in that upper, you know, executive, the shadow executives, like kind of the nondescript, the people I'm referring to. And so a lot of people, myself included, are very wary of AI and a lot of people even boycott it. So for me, I mentioned very briefly at the beginning, I'm getting I' up more to AI as a writing tool, both in academia and in my own songwriting. I have a guitar on the wall behind me. I do things that are not just tuba. And a lot of that is my partner uses it very frequently. And I've just had some more exposure to it because everyone I talk to about AI, they're the musicians who are just as concerned as I am. So you never really get that outside perspective and you know, you don't really gain any respect for it. But that practical experience. And like I said, for me, ChatGPT is the one that I'll use from time to time where it's like, okay, I have my own musical idea, inspiration for song. What's my barrier as a writer? What do I struggle with is just getting started, like a lot of people. And it's like, okay, well here's where I'm at. Can you help me brainstorm some ideas? Seeing it on paper, great. And then it kind of hands it back to me and I'm able to do it. And I still would say I developed something very original, the argument with AI that right when it emerged and people were talking about it. And so really sound argument is when you view it as a tool in the same way a calculator really affected the ability of students to perform high level math equations. Is there a world in which we can use AI as a tool to improve our students and our ability to write and our ability to engage with literature? Right. Is there that space? And that's kind of an open question, depending on who you ask. I believe there's a way to use that as a tool. It has to be very specific. We need to be teaching it in school because like it or not, it is here.

I do think education is the way forward on this. And it's really interesting because what comes to mind, and this is the first time I've encountered this sort of reality of classical musicians normally doing studio work aren't doing that anymore because of AI however, in Cincinnati at Music hall, we will have performances where a live orchestra will perform live to the movie that's being shown.

Yeah, that's great.

And I'm like, it's almost the, it's. It's flipped it on its head. But if I think about, let's say, Disclosure Day, great film, John Williams, Steven Spielberg teaming up again. Right. So most people go to that movie and they see it, they feel it, they don't know who John Williams is. They don't know why the movie was made special. And so when you talk about the education, I think there's a bit of need to educate the public on that. If it's not at the end of the movie, instead of just rolling the credits, you know, do an AB of a scene that was. That has no music, and then one where John Williams had a say in it. And I think.

Right.

It just makes things so much more special now. That's just the music being present. But the thing I'm coming to grasp here and coming to grips with is it maybe training AI on this problem to say AI Classical musicians are losing opportunity because of generated music. How can we Solve this problem. And really I would invite all listeners to go do that. And it's my favorite kind of thing. It's like turning AI on itself. And that's a fun challenge. But what do you think? I mean, from your perspective, what ideas come to mind in terms of solving that problem? One.

Oh, that's a. Yeah, it's a big one. In terms of solving AI replicated music at the cost of actual jobs, I think education is a really important part of it. And so when you have that comparison of a scene, right, or you can really see what. When you have a comparison, it does become clearer. The reality is the average. And it's not a sign of their intelligence by any means, but it's a. The average audience member just doesn't engage with the music the way you and I do, as people have been working in music for decades. And so if for them a lot of it exists in the background, you know. Right. Like, what's the difference then between, you know, like a Claude or ChatGPT generated audio file versus a professionally recorded orchestra? As a musician, as an artist, I look at that. Well, the important part of the orchestra is that you can continue to do new things with it. AI is always going to be a little limited in that capacity. And creativity is a very important part of art, even broad, like broadly, beyond just the film industry. As far as the replicated music, it's the education to the audience members. But that's also where the union plays a really big role that they, you know, it's that bargaining with the studios. It's like, hey, you know, it's. It's proving the value of human musicians and really putting some safeguards in place. Because that's the scary part right now is that there's not a lot of safeguards in place, right. Not the restrictions on it. And so I'm a big belief in some regulation and some safeguards saying, like, okay, you know what? Like films that still does need to be recorded by actual musicians. And it's not the first time that there's been, if not generated music, you know, canned music for live performance has been the term. It was like. There was a big controversy around Broadway years ago where instead of like the actual band in the pit, the pit orchestra, it's like, well, what if we just played on speakers and have the actors, like, sing along to like a karaoke party essentially, because they're looking to do everything cost and try to cut where they can. And the people who fought that really did everyone a service there because yes, it does save a couple dollars, but. And that's kind of the incentive in the way our markets work. But in terms of what art is and how it speaks to us, AI will never truly replace that, not for lack of trying.

I'm glad you centered on the art because that's what. When you were saying earlier about you use it to kind of help you write the book that came to mind, obviously the War of Art, the Steven Pressfield book that kind of talks about that and dealing with the muse and whatnot. It might need to be required reading in high school just to get everyone understanding what's happening when a musician's trying to do that. I think a general appreciation because as you've mentioned, I think people really take it for granted. They're just taking in the music. Maybe not so much classical, say opera fans. They know, right? Oh,.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, here's a classic.

The average layman that takes in, say, the Simpsons, which for years for me has been the bell standard of. I mean, my gosh, dynamic soundtracks every single episode.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Right. So really, really important stuff that we're. That we're digesting here. I also remember the soundtrack to that Michael Keaton film Birdman, where Antonio Sanchez.

Basically.

Played the drums through the whole thing. And it was just that. So important and impactful. But we really. I. What I'm seeing is. Is a drawback to connection. So live performance is almost a demand of the new generation. We don't want. It's almost at the expense of DJs because they. They really want to see folks like out breaking your back, holding the tuba and. And doing that polka thing. I don't think AI will ever have a chance at polka. That's just not going to happen. You must be there.

It can replicate so much of it. And that's not just a polka thing, right? It can replicate the music structure and theory. It can replicate the form. It can replicate the style and the instruments. But it's the spirit of it that is what really people go there for, whether they know it or not. That's the part AI in my opinion, will never be able to fully replicate. And what's concerning to me is that you have a lot of people either understanding that and ignoring it or not understanding that and trying to force AI into places that it just. Right now, it definitely has no places being in. It may develop and probably will develop to a point where it does start to become less distinguishable. But even then, it will never fully cross that barrier. You Know, like I would never want to see an AI artist, you know, especially if we're getting now from again like in terms of an audience member and wanting to see a performance. That human element is what makes it so crazy.

There you go, There you go. That's exactly the point. And I think it's actually a shocking statement to musicians to say it's not to say that your product has never mattered, although I say that a lot now because of signal to noise. There's so much out in the world. But I would draw an equivalent to sports. So when you go to a sports game, you see your hero, your Johnny bench. To use a sport.

There's.

A.

Narrative to it. Yeah.

There's a success, failure. There's a humanity. You're going to watch somebody success succeed or fail and you're there to see that attempt.

Not.

Necessarily the home run. You're there. And. And over time it becomes a. A whole lived phrase of moments where you have somebody who is not hitting well and then they will. And so for tuba, that is, they've got to hit all the notes. They've got to, you know, have the right timing. I can focus in on an individual player that all that opportunity is there to witness that. I want to say majesty of humanity, but that's really what it is.

Yeah, no, absolutely. It's just like that human element is that X factor. It is the defining element. And that's if audiences can key. I think so much of our audiences do know that and do actually crave that just more on a subconscious level.

Yeah.

What they go and enjoy and it's just like it's. And it's okay that they don't articulate it. They don't live in this world the way you and I do and that our colleagues do. That kind of goes back to your further point about education, about how do we appreciate the art.

You said conscious and I think that's it. And I think there's no better instruments to raise consciousness than the tuba played expertly. What's the weirdest. Yes, you've said a gig you took only because nobody else plays tuba.

Oh, gosh. I'm trying to. Yeah. Another. Some fun ones over the years. Let's see. Well, one of the weirdest things, honestly, starting out like. Like it was the kind of the. How the polka thing has turned out. And I talk about it so much because it is. So much of my career is playing in the polka world. It's such a weirdly specific world. And I've done some. Yeah. Like I like. I've done some interesting duet gigs with other instruments. Like I'll. I'll take a moment and talk more about kind of how I got into polka. So a friend of mine at usc, it's actually another USC connection, was how I got this job. It was my first job out of college. I just graduated, just finished my bachelor's degree. He's playing euphonium. And he might. Because this is my cup gig, you might get up, you have a little clip on and an octa pedal to put it down the tube register. And then just asked me to sub for him one day. And so at this point, I'd only had really classical experience in some sousaphone. So I never looked at this F tuba. It was a way to just like as I had never read changes in my life, chord changes, you know, that said from. And I. I'm coming from playing concertos and playing ridiculously hard things, but really lacking that core skill set that's a big thing in my own teaching is that you need to be able to play changes. Even if it's a 145, like start simple, that's totally okay. Polka, it's two chords. You have a one and a five. It's actually about the friendliest, easiest way to learn changes that I've ever encountered. But I went from this classical concert hall to these just beer gardens of people stumbling around, throwing up in the corner and just. And like. And you know, playing rock and roll music. And it's become such a big part of my grand. I grew up on rock and roll. I love rock and roll. And so it's not something that I ever predicted. But we came in and like, oh yeah, here we are playing Ring of Fire. And what's Ricky Martin, Vita Loca was in the. In the book. And Sweet Caroline. And what all that is I'm playing base essentially on that stage. I'm a bass player. I'm just playing the horn instead.

Right.

I'm just playing everything on the horn for the color and the technique. And so that was very much like, yeah, you know, I like money, I'll play a gig because they also those good paychecks. And I. So it was definitely kind of like at that time, like the weirdest, most out there gig that I'd done. It drew on an education I didn't have that I had to find on the way there. The first gig was a very short notice subbing situation. And so a lot of it was panicked, like just trying not to screw up the book, you know. Like, let me just get through this and not train wreck the whole thing. Thing. But it's also what afforded me so much growth in my musical journey. That for me, what I found and this. So then for me, doing the weird stuff, the out there stuff, helped my classical playing, which is so much about this kind of. It's. We associate it with perfectionism. There's more to it than that. There is creativity in there, but often when we're students, it's about playing perfectly one type of way. And so what I found is I got more creative when I didn't have to read the notes on the page, when I just saw C, F, G and those patterns. And I had to listen to the timing and I had to construct a baseline on my own. It's all major scales. It draws on the fundamental education I had. I did have a core skill set. I didn't have any of this application. And I'm very happy I got it because it's something that has served me really well in my career. But that's, you know, just for anyone, you know, whatever we plan on doing in our musical career, in our musical journey, as far as this is the music I like, be open to the weird call, really open to it, because it can lead you down so many wonderful roads. And even if it doesn't lead you down like a career path, the skills you get from broadening your horizon and getting those new perspectives help you in everything else you do. It's.

Amazing because I was going to close with a question of, you know, if another tuba player in LA asked you how to actually make this work physically, financially, what's the one thing you tell them that nobody tells you starting out, it sounds like your answer would be open.

Be open. And especially if they're coming from a classical background, like many of us do, because there's not really a jazz tuba program. There's not a pop tuba program. If you study tuba, you're studying classically. It's a classical understanding instrument. The industry and the work today is more commercial than it's ever been. Covid taught us that the orchestral job and the military band, when you study music classically, those are kind of the two career paths you're told about. Like, audition, get into an orchestra. Audition, get into a military band. That's where your job security is. That's where your salary is, that's where your benefits are. And I'm of the belief that Covid taught us that's not as rock solid as maybe it has been advertised. I think in yours, patterns past, you know, you can make that argument, but today I think you have a much harder time taking that argument. The people who are out there working and doing it are the commercial players, are the people who are doing the fun stuff, honestly. So for me, my next endeavor is here in Southern California breaking into the banda scene that I actually know quite a few of those players. They're the busiest people I know, you know, and I haven't talked into like all the financials of it. You know, they're playing, they're busy, but they're 50, $50 gigs. It's like, okay, well that has changed a little bit. But you know, here I am, like, I'll complain, like my summers are very slow. They're my slow season. It's like, wow, and I wish I had more work. And then I'm talking to somebody who's playing four shows a night. Like, it's not just we need to learn from those people. Those are the people that we want to connect with and see like you're clearly doing something that's working and we're over here kind of starving right now. I think there's a little bit of hesitation institute because it is so different, but it's so. So as far as what I would tell, like another tuba player trying to figure it out, be open to the different styles. Use your, like your education background. That has given you a foundation that you can build up from in so many different ways and be open to building out in different ways. It's kind of a necessity these days. As far as playing. The other half of that is be open to, if not like a day job supplementing. So a lot of what people in my field do is we plan to teach. So a big part of my work is that teaching component. I'm very passionate about teaching, so that is, that's not an issue for me. Some people do it more begrudgingly. Other people find job more of an industry based position and admin work in addition to playing. But you know, pad your income a little bit that if you're relying solely on gigging and performances, it's feast or famine when it's really great. You know, I'm living very well for a couple months in the fall from Oktoberfest, but that's only two months of the year.

Right.

So if I like, you know, that's something I've had to kind of come to terms with as I'm getting more established as a professional in my area, is that you need more income streams. That's why booking actually was really a great position for me. It was experience working in a booking position in miracle admin position where it provides you more, it provides you additional income because you can only ever play one gig at a time. So we talk about that in terms of like getting out there and playing the gigs and you know, and that's so much of it. We enjoy that, which is so much of why we do that. But you can only ever play one at a time too. So in today's day and age, it's really hard to carve out a living doing just that. Some people do. They'll tell you they're. They're the hardest working people you've ever seen. Scene we're willing to put that work in, but you can still do both. You can find those gigs, you can put that work in and then just give yourself the smallest amount of consistency in the form of any kind of supplemental work. And it provides you so much. Oftentimes it's like my plan in music school is like I'm just gonna play the horn. That is not a fully fleshed out career vision. Well,.

You're an excellent teacher. You've done a lot of teaching in this episode and we haven't even touched the. The notion of the tuba and technical ability. But there's a lot of knowledge here at 31 that you've amassed and I can tell there's been a journey of say 17 year old Cameron up through 31 and you've really become shaped and sort of really powerful. A lot of information, a lot of good experience that both you and I think the marriage of Cameron and LA have created something that's very valuable. Which leads me to my next question. How do people find you? What are you doing next and how can people locate you and check you out?

Oh sure. Well, you can find me on Instagram at Cam the Tuba man is my Instagram handle. You can also find me on Facebook. Cameron Holt. I think I'm also on Threads, so that's. I don't think I've posted there ever. I just like a cross posting. I need to better about that. Social media is super important. I need to be much better about in general. But you can find me my next. I think my next. My first public polka show is on September 5th, a little over a month from recording this. But you can find me all over Southern California in the fall. If you want to look up the band, it's Hazelnuss Band, like hazelnut: H-A-Z-E-L-N-U-S-S, HazelnussBand.com where we have all of our shows for the upcoming Southern California Oktoberfest season showed you can find me occasionally playing around LA with Blow Brass. Even if you don't see me, I highly recommend checking out that band if you're in the area. They are so busy, they're everywhere and it is some of the best players you'll ever see. Outside of that, you can just kind of catch me every now and then doing some kind of chamber work. I'm also dabbling more in songwriting and pop music. I mentioned briefly I do some open mics and some shows over at the Showcase west in the Ventura area at the Bright Hart Pub as well as some shows in Long beach. So you can kind of find me doing a little bit of everything all over the place. But if you want to check out a polka show or check me out on Instagram, those would be the ones I'd really recommend.

That's awesome. I want to thank you so much for talking with me today. This is, it's so rewarding just to connect with another musician and who's having a successful experience. I really appreciate your knowledge and you know what we've learned today. Thank you so much Cameron.

Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.