Max Gise: Beware the Steady Gig

Good morning everybody. You know, I say good morning every time. It could be 2 o' clock in the morning or 11 o' clock at night. And I greet people with good morning. I don't know why. I just feel like good morning is always a beginning and there's always something to look forward to. Weird. But you can start the trend with me. Just wish everybody good morning all the time. If you're a gigging musician, you've played the room where nobody's listening. And you've played the room where somebody sits down after the set tells you it changed their night. My guest has done both a lot. Max Gise is a Cincinnati guitarist. He teaches commercial music production at CCM, has run a private studio for about 17 years, co directs music at a church in Fort Thomas and plays solo guitar arrangements of pop songs with no loops on purpose. We get into the gig he lost. Because a bartender didn't like his singer's voice. The rehearsal he walked out of. Why? He says beware of the steady gig and where AI actually lands for a working guitarist. I'm Cliff Adams, this is the MoneyGigs podcast. Here's Max. Max, guys, let's start off with who are you? What do you do? Where are you going?

That's a great question. Thank you Cliff for having me on your podcast. And I answer this question. I wear a lot of different hats currently where I'm at in my career I kind of just sort of start in order with jobs with titles. I'm an adjunct instructor at CCM with commercial music production degree and the bachelor of arts majors primarily. I've done that about six years. I am a co music director at Christchurch in Fort Thomas. I've been affiliated with that church about 18 years, working not always as a music director, but different directing jobs at various points. I've had a private music studio in Cincinnati at Cincinnati Music academy for about 17 years, probably taught over 250 plus people. I have the good problem of many students stick with me many years. So in fact I have one student, he's had over 500, no, over 600 lessons, which is remarkable and sometimes we could deep dive into that. But like, I mean it's for him it's like showing up to the dojo. So like I completely respect, you know, what he's done and now he's out gigging and playing, you know, so but if I continue, you know, that's just sort of the stuff I have scheduled and showed for. And then I play in a number of different bands. Recently I've been playing more As a sub. I, you know, wind up subbing or playing with, you know, groups arranging everything from the Kentucky Symphony Orchestra to the Ultrasonics to Floyd and the Walkman to some other duo situations, some different jazz situations. The original Farm League big Band. I got to play some really talented young jazz musicians. These are recent graduates or soon to be graduates from CCM Jazz. They have a band called after the Break. Played their Sight Red music with them a week and a half ago. That was wonderful. They write some really hard stuff. I have my own thing, which is probably a thing that's a little bit unique about me in the guitar player school.

So.

And I've been doing that really since the Pandemic. And it goes currently under the artist title Nylon and Leather. But I'm debating. I'm changing that. And, you know, that's basically. I've arranged over 120 mostly pop songs for solo guitar. And my thing is no loops. Everything's played like a classical player. That doesn't mean I'm sounding or playing like always classical music. I'm probably leaving something. Oh, I have a duo. I work with Nylon, Leather and Lace. Billy Town singer named Talia Zoll. So. But I think one of the things that's really exciting about what I do and what might be interesting to the listeners is like, I really kind of swing the sword all the different ways you can in the guitar world, because I play acoustic classical, electric, jazz. I read music, I write music, I arrange music. I've been in situations with full symphony orchestra to, like, really expose situations. Just a couple singers up front in front of large audiences, played with Leroy Ellington for a number of years. You know, so he. During that period of time from about 2013 to about 2023, played a ton and, you know, other musicals, et cetera. So. And I think that's also why I was asked to teach CCM too. You know, I get to bring all that experience to the students who are wanting to study commercial music production. And so I'm trying to, you know, address those needs. So it's kind of fun to come from a background. I hate to say the cliche, but, you know, definitely sort of a jack of all trades, and I'd say master of some, but it's hard to. It's hard to do it all, you know. And so the flip side of that is. And maybe some people can resonate with this, you know, I feel sometimes I'm always running around and I'm always learning stuff and kind of on the subway and never really getting stick at a destination too long.

Well, that's actually comforting to hear. I often criticize myself in terms of the jack of all trades, master of none thing. So it's actually comforting to hear that. But, yeah, you're doing a lot. You spoke about students a bunch. And I'm curious about the one that had 5, 600. When did you ingest this student? And how old is this person now? And how does it feel to watch that person kind of transform?

Well, that's a great question. And it's been amazing because when I first met him, he was probably one of the most. He was an adult student then. He was probably in his late 40s. He's a business owner. I have a thing in my studio called Adult Swim, so I teach on Fridays from like nine to noon, so it's like the best time. But he has taken an hour lesson weekly since I could look it up. But I think it's about 2007. And he was really challenged at first, like rhythmically. You know, sometimes how students can be rhythmically challenged. But he stuck with it. And it's just little breakthrough after little breakthrough. And now the level that he's operating on is he's arranging his own music. He can play solo, he can play in a band. He has full command of the guitar neck. I mean, and he's in his 60s and just still loves it and I think sort of use it. And I feel this way about. I exercise, so I like to run, I like to jog, I like to work with the trainer. And I value that relationship. And so I like to think of myself as like offering sort of that mental, emotional soul training for people who want to learn an instrument. Because most people who study an instrument aren't going to get on stage, they aren't going to write a song, but they find deep joy and comfort in it. And that's definitely something that sustained me with it.

Well, there's a ton of hope in that story, because what I was expecting you to say is, you got this kid at 5 and no late 40s to 60s. So I think anyone listening to this who's not a musician thinking about getting into it, there's your hope. The other thing you said, which might be a little controversial, no loops. I've often had that thought myself on my own gigs. I play keyboard and I'm like, I could really make this gig a lot easier if I could support comp for myself and walk a bass for myself. But what is your thought process, perspective behind the loops?

So for me it's just part of the art, I guess. It's how I approach and come at the guitar, which everybody has their own approach. But I think the thing that makes me a little bit different is I'm not. I mean, I love rock and pop and I play plenty of it. But I think when I'm writing and arranging, I look at the guitar like Segovia, like the mini orchestra, almost more like a piano player. And so with no loops, what I'm really trying to accomplish there is like, you know, I want to shape this song. So I don't. Like, sometimes I'll arrange a song and it's basically like the song, you know, and like that's fine and like that's, I guess, kind of the ultimate form of just background music. But more often what I like to do is add different classical jazz sensibilities, frankly. I'll give a song a classical intro. I'll borrow from another classical piece that might be in the same key or a nearby key, modulate it, maybe it's in a different meter, and then take that song into the next thing. Like, for example, I'll take like the famous Bach beret in E. And a lot of times I'll take that into Paranoid by Black Sabbath and sort of a peanut butter and jelly. I can do sort of like a seven or eight song Beatles medley. You know, it's sort of. That's something I picked up from Tommy Emanuel, who really like about 20 years ago. Hearing him play really inspired me. The other thing and you know, guitar players and students and listeners take for.

It for a will.

But I think when you see it, I think it shows just kind of a higher level of guitar playing that's happening because you have full control and you can completely be dynamic. Whereas with loops you are definitely locked in to the loop and the loop is not changing. And now I want to say it's a different art, it's a different thing.

Sure.

Just like anything else, other technologies, it's up to the user to keep it creative. And there's definitely some amazing loop artists on the guitar who like do a great job building loops. Like, in fact, I put a post out on my page and got a lot of feedback on it. But where I'm coming at it is I feel like it allows me to be a more dynamic player. It allows me to like, I'm a jazz player in my heart too. So like, I love just improvising and communication that way, you know, and really looking at the audience or how am I feeling or maybe I just thought about a buddy who is not on this planet anymore and like I, you know, just. It allows and if I'm locked into a loop, then I can't follow that.

It's more conversant. Yes, more like a conversation. I think you're right though, not to downplay the artistry of looping because in and of itself it could be remarkable depending on what the person's doing with a song and arrangement. But to be unexpected, to be able to be conversant. And my goal is I want that person to be remarking about me the next morning when they wake up. You can be more remarkable if you're more conversant. So that's a really great approach to that. Do you think that helps?

Absolutely. Because like, so instrumental music is a challenge, right. Especially when you're playing solo. Like, you know, like I understand to many people, the lay listener, I'm basically Elevator music, you know, would be sort of deprecating, but I get it, you know, like, but it's pleasant. But what I've had over the experience of playing a lot of solo gigs over the past six years, like I'm getting one to ready to do one for artswave, is I can make it listening music especially for quiet rooms where then there's people who play guitar or had somebody that play guitar or who have played an instrument and they recognize a little bit of like what I'm doing and how I arranged it and that it wasn't just pressing a button, you know.

Well, you know, if life is about the little things, then you become one of the best little things.

I love that. That's such a beautiful sentiment, I like to think. Yeah. You know, and on a best case scenario, because sometimes, you know, I played for nobody. I've played for a thousand people, you know, and in the plane for nobody. You know, sometimes somebody shows up unexpectedly and then they sit down in front of you and then they want to start talking to you know, like you really kind of touch them. And I think, you know, when we're doing our best, if we're really looking at it from like if no one ever heard us play music, would we still play music? You know, that's like one of those scenarios. Like, yeah, I'm playing music, there's nobody here, I'm in the empty forest. But then somebody wanders by and it's like, oh, what a beautiful thing I just saw.

Yeah.

And then we had that moment together, you know.

That is, that is beautiful. Yeah. So those are positive things. But, you know, you once got fired from a duo gig because the bartender didn't like your singer's voice, even though she's a professional working singer. Take me back to that.

Yeah, so that's frustrating because this was a place that I had worked at as a soloist for many years and had a good relationship with all the staff and the owner had heard prior to fully paint the picture that I had noticed that they were mostly booking male singers. And one of the waiters, I think, commented, like, oh, so and so doesn't like, you know, girl singers or she's super picky. I think, you know, fast forward. I just kind of on a lark had my singer come up and just sing like a set with me, you know, on a night where I was solo. But it was really low key and there's some people even came out specifically to hear us. So, you know, we're putting people in seats. And then at the end of that night, you know, I basically get a call and it's like, from the guy who booked me, you know, secondhand. And he's like, hey, like, I'm sorry, but, like, you know, your dates are released, you know, like, I'm like, well, what's. What's this about? It's like she's just. That's. That singer just. It doesn't work. Like, it just. I'm sorry, Max is just not going to work. I'm like, well, so and so can you at least call her back and, like, get me more info? Because, like, that just feels really tacky, you know, like, you're leaving me with nothing. And then he called him back to this person's credit. And maybe an ironic way to her credit, she, you know, said like, hey, I didn't like her voice. I thought she was pitchy. She's an amazing singer, you know, I mean, she gets gigs that you have to audition for, you know, trained singers. So I, you know, I will say the singers that are listening to this podcast or guitar players that sing, I feel you sisters and brothers, because I know it's so judgy to play guitar. It is way more judgy when you're a singer. And having worked with numerous singers and personally, it's a pleasure of mine. I don't know about if I speak for all guitar players, but I love the duo or trio or just working in small group with singers, you know, everybody's different. Like, that's like Bob Dylan, man. You know, like, there's all these great voices that we wouldn't consider classically great. So, you know, anyways, so I guess the scenario there is, yeah, I left kind of a bad taste in my mouth. Don't really play at that place anymore. Subsequently, you know, they sort of cut the pay and things too, you know, it's a shame. So, you know, sometimes you're at a place, you're at a good situation for a while and it's great. And then other times, you know, sometimes for all of you listening that might have a steady gig, you know, beware of the steady gig because sometimes when you have the steady gig, it stops you from looking or you get kind of used to it and people sort of forget about you. And also is, you know, there's some people who really work it hard. And I think all those artists who are like worked and booked five or six times a week, I think that's great. They do a good job pretty much spreading it around. I've always found that to be challenging because I feel like when you play all the time, you play so much, like no one really makes it a point to come out or they pick only one of those really to come out. And then the rest of the time it's. But you know, everybody has a different approach. I think where I'm at in life. I mentioned all the stuff I do professionally. I'd also say I'm like a stay at home parent. Like my wife has a corporate gig. You mentioned you're a corporate guy. I'm married to a corporate partner. My wife Anna. Amazing. Has worked for the same company for many years. And like really, you know, we have a partnership, but like how it works right now in our relationship, I'm more valuable, you know, 75% at home and you know, working on the edges. So sometimes I quip to the fellow stay at home parents, like, I'm like the busiest stay at home dad you'll meet. That's probably not entirely true. I know there's. Everybody's busy. Anybody that has kids, you're doing all.

This and raising kids. What do you actually want them to understand? Them to understand about choosing music as a living?

Well, you know, they get to see it up close. My kids do play music. I have two teenagers, clarinet player and a piano player. They're wonderful, very talented. They work with really great teachers. So, you know, totally getting to see the value from the other side, you know, being the client to hire the teacher to teach my child. So that's really eye opening. And we've been through some piano teachers for sure, but love who we're with now with my son, who's very talented, bright, proud parent, who wouldn't say that. But, you know, I think I. For. For me, I want them to just lean into the joy and the community of music, especially my high schooler and marching band. You know, I like the tribe element of it and that. Like, you know, we want to find our people. Find your group. Who do you. Who resonates with you know, on so many levels. And he's definitely found that. So that's exciting. I have mixed feelings. We don't have to go there. About whether I'd want them to be professional or not, because it's a grind, you know, and I. I think anybody who's out there making music professionally, like, knows exactly what I'm talking about. Especially now, everything's more expensive. It's hard. As we get older, there's always younger, talented people waiting in the wings, you know, in a good way. Like, this is good as I've had a professor and my good friend Aaron Jacobs quote, you know, I'm breeding snakes. You know, he teaches at ccm, too. And if you don't understand what was meant by that means all these talented young musicians who are taking your gig.

Right.

But that's kind of the way of things, because were.

Cliff. Right.

Younger musicians who, you know, we're really grateful for those opportunities. And so it's really been great. I've been able to give back a lot of that. It's also exciting to be able to get calls and say, no, I can't do it, but I have a great student who can. That's one of my favorite things to do is be able to defer students who are. Who are ready, you know, especially for, like, reading gig.

So. Well, I might have opportunities for them. So that's great. That's great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, I think it's. I think it's important. And of course, I'm still interested. I still want to grow. I still want to, you know, figure it out. You know, I think a little bit where I'm at is, you know, I enjoy playing with all these different things, but sometimes I feel spread. So then I need to feel like I pick. I need to pick more of a direction.

Well, yeah, you've taken gigs where just because they were, quote, too weird to pass up, like the. I noticed the rock and roll Santa Claus being one. What's the strangest thing you've ever been paid to do with an instrument?

Well, that was up there, but that was a pleasure because it was on my birthday and my family was there and I got to make like a total ham. This is something. If anybody's ever seen me play, they know I move around, I wiggle, I go out and dance, I'm wireless, I'm an entertainer when I'm out playing, you know, I've always embraced that element of it. Definitely got a lot of that when I was playing a lot with Brian Hogg, who is also masterful, like, getting out there and, you know, he's given me a lot of opportunities and taught me a ton. So I have nothing but gratitude to that brother. Yeah, that one was pretty weird. I, you know, I've been asked to, you know, specifically not bring an amp before, you know, like, which is, you know, any music, Dart. It's pretty quiet, you know, especially when you're not singing, you know, for a party. I've been asked to fake play guitar. I played on a train before. That was fun. Playing on the governor's train to the Kentucky Derby. I don't know, there's. I mean, you play music long enough, you find some weird situations. I've also played in like, super dingy places that were gutter punk esque and wondered if I was safe. And I know, I think. Was it Joe Cowell mentioned he had a gun flashed out? Yeah, yeah. You know, I haven't had that, but I mean, I've had things adjacent, you know. I think one of the most interesting gigs from Norman, Oklahoma, I went to school, University Oklahoma, Norman. And when I was gigging there at one of the nearby bars by the campus, the nearby campus bowling alley went up in flames, like epic flames right in the middle of our set. Everybody cleared out at the same bar. Like a few months later, I was playing a gig and our drummer got arrested for getting high during the set break. And we had to find another drummer during the set break, which we did. So there's.

Wow.

You know, you find yourself in just crazy weirdo situations, driving all night, trying to find somebody's house, they can't remember where they live. We're not from Chicago. You from Chicago, you should know where you live. We're really tired. You know, we played at a gig the night before, you know, but were. This is pre gps. We had the, like carpool. We were stuck. And then it's Monday morning traffic and. Or not Monday, but morning traffic in Chicago. And so you find yourself, you know, in these crazy. I mean, I'm sure you have many stories. I think I do enjoy that. You Know, I will say, like, I think there's a camaraderie amongst people who've played music for a long time, especially when you play for more than one group. He gets some interesting stories, you know, just that even with the wedding band I play with, I feel like I could write a miniseries about this band.

Now you're talking about the fire and it feels like there's a story you could look back on and at the time was probably nerve wracking anxious and you would have considered a negative part of your day. But now you're looking back on it and maybe valuing it differently.

You know, I think you nick up your body. You look back, you're like, I remember when I got this scar, you know, when I got this story. And you know, a lot of times for something to get beautiful, it's got to go through a lot of ugliness too.

Definitely. And sometimes you'll take a gigantic. For less money. If the band is great or if it comes with your words quote grape Bling. How do you actually decide when, say that low paying gig is worth it?

I'm picky. It's one of the things I'm really grateful. Where I'm at in my career, I can say no to a lot of things. But when I'm asked for something that's kind of below my pay grade or what I would like to earn financially from a gig, I really just think about it. I'm about community, I'm about meeting people. That's something I've learned about myself over the past 20 years. I think I, I do better in a group workout class than on my own. You know, I like group hikes better than by myself. You know, I do like to go to movies by myself. But you know, that notwithstanding, you know, I like the community element. So like for example, getting called by Alec Davis, who is one of the members of after the Break and he's just like, hey, really short notice, could you play? And I'm like, yeah. Can you make the rehearsal?

No.

Can you show up? Yeah. And what was a pleasure there is I've worked with some of these younger kids, but it was, you know, trying to meet not necessarily always younger, but just different communities. You know, when I was playing with Leroy, you know, really getting to embed in the blues community, which I always felt a little bit as a stranger, you know, and I'm not really like an active part of that, but it was like, you know, great. So I, I enjoy that element of it. So if it's something along those lines. I'm sort of past the exposure part of my career, though. Some things are fun. I'm going to do a thing later this summer, Play music. Though the main headline is Bronson Arroyo, Noah Werther Spoon. I'm going to be sidecar on that. Entertaining. Why? Those guys are, you know, getting ready and people are showing up for their event and they're shaking hands, especially Bronson. So, you know, so, like, that's exciting. That does pay pretty good for what it is. But, like, that's like a definite. Yeah, I'm a guilty here. Sports fan. Sorry, if you're not a sports fan. I'm a sports fan. I love the Reds of the Bengals. I see a lot of similarities. But anyway, yeah, so another thing I'll say, just honestly, if it's a really close gig, like, logistics, like, if it's something that's, like, easy and I'm like, asked to show up at my neighborhood pool and play for like 50 bucks or I have a Kroger, like, the big. I live in Anderson, the big Anderson. Kroger has musicians there. You know, like, that's like one of my favorite things. Just go play solo. Play whatever I want to play. It pays decent, you know. But the best part is it's close.

So I think the progression from saying yes to everything to saying no to some things might involve how you approach those free gigs. Do you think about it when you take. When you took those types of gigs or when you still take them, How I'm going to convert this, you know, if you're playing your Neighbor's pool for 50 bucks, are you thinking, I'm going to get some footage from this or I'm going to meet some people or enter a community? Those kind of thoughts come up.

Yes. Yes, they do. So I am a YouTube person. I have a YouTube channel. Something I've been doing a lot recently is taking. I bought a nicer camera and I've been taking it. And like, if I'm at the nature center doing a wedding, I'm going to go wander off and find a nice quiet area and just play something, you know, and get some. Get some footage, you know, I think that's. That's interesting. You know, I recognize at least how I think about it. Video footage is a really important thing for guitar players. You know, people want to see you play guitar. They hear with their eyes, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. And it's more interesting when you have an interesting background. So that's an Element that I kind of keep in mind networking, you know, getting like I said, to be parts of different community or just get your name kind of out different places. And sometimes, you know, once again, when you're sort of associated with doing the same things for a while, people kind of forget about you. I try to think about, you know, what are things that would be useful. A lot of times I find just talking with people who really enjoyed and paid attention to what I did is really how I've developed a fan base. So and that's something that I've done too on YouTube is I mostly interact and have developed a fan base of not just random people, but actually other guitar players. And many cases if they lived in the same country, they'd probably be a student of them. Mine. YouTube has really allowed me to kind of have more of a international audience, you know, so that's something that's kind of cool. I have some YouTube friends, one guy from Italy, one guy from England, Puerto Rico, who's a huge YouTuber, you know, he's really just struck at gold on Instagram. Guy from Norway. So it's been really great to like do that. I've also, what's interesting for other people, I've continued my education as a professional and that's something I started to do in the pandemic. Realizing that I was teaching remote lessons, why couldn't I be a student? And so I engaged in probably a series of five or six week sessions with Peter Mazza. And they were, who's a great New York jazz guitar player. And he was a group leader of a solo advanced jazz guitar arranging class. And so that's where I got to really meet other professional jazz guitar players from around the world. Literally, we've had everybody on the same call from Germany, Australia, California, Ohio, New York, you know, Norway.

So.

And that's been really great and really interesting to get to bring your music to people who are at a high level and can critique it rather than just say I like it or I don't like it.

So I want to pull at that thread a bit. So was it Covid that motivated you to seek training? That's something I've never heard. I usually hear people in their 40s, 50s, 60s. I'm done learning. I'm now working. I'm trying to make a buck. Not that I'm done learning. You can still research on your own, but to take that extra step of actually getting a lesson from a professional. What was that thought process?

So there's A great thing out by Wynton Marsalis. And it's like the 10 steps to becoming an expert or becoming a great jazz musician. And step number one on that list, I remember this as a student, was seek an expert. That's why I work out with a trainer. I didn't just try to go to YouTube and find a workout. Went and found a person in real life, kids. And then if I want somebody to fix my stuff, like, I'm going to ask somebody, I'm going to find a professional. Like, I recognize the value as a professional in other people's professions. And so I sought an expert. And in this case, my colleague and buddy, Brandon Coleman, had an interaction with Peter where Peter came into town and he's like, hey, you should meet this guy. And we met, and I did a lesson with him on the side and started our relationship there. And that was exciting for me. I have another teacher I've studied with on and off who's a friend and a teacher who lives in the New York area named Freddie Bryant, who's a super monster jazz guitar player. And so for me, it's hard to find people who I'm excited to study with. I totally understand. The other sentiment I don't like, you know, you get older, it gets a little bit harder. It is harder to learn when you get older for so many reasons. But in this particular instance, he mentioned he had a group class. And once again, if there's a theme about this podcast and kind of something I get out of music, it's community. And this is the case where I'm getting a community out of learning. And not only that, I feel like I'm learning with fellow guitar samurai who are, like, really amazing players in their own right, many of whom are adjunct instructors at their nearby universities or, you know, out touring. One guy, he said, the Juilliard admissions department for the jazz, you know, young kid, monster player. And then just getting the opportunity to, you know, to get, like, good feedback, like. And he was, to Peter's credit, really great about, like, I actually learned a lot, you know, improved as a teacher because he had a really great way of having us approach giving each other feedback where you can't say, I don't like something. You got to be like, why did you make the choice?

Yeah, that's something. The thread, though, the hard part for me, and I'm about to interview Jordan Pollard and the way she talks, I almost want to take lessons from her because I'm late in life and I'm kind of reapproaching it. But how do you pick the thread to go down? Is it content? Is it technique? I have the fear at 52 that I can't learn technique or improve anymore. I have that resident with me, so it's like, I don't want to waste somebody else's time and just go into them. And did Peter figure that out or did you have an idea of what you wanted to improve when you re approached it?

Addressing technique. I think it's important to work on technique and get better. But I think there's a certain point we reach in our middle age where we've, in a frank sense, sort of maxed out where we're going to be. And I think of my hero, Wes Montgomery, who I think, you know, once was a paraphrase of his. Like, you know, he knew he wasn't the best guitar player, but he's like, hey, I can do everything I want to do. So I'm a virtuoso in my own mind, you know, so that's how I think about technique. So I just want to do that. And then I guess what I'm more interested in is writing. You know, I guess this is maybe a little bit of the classical bug in me. Like, you get on the backside of your life. Start to think about legacy. I've recorded, you know, several albums, you know, in bands and stuff. I have a few I've done as a soloist. I've written out some of this music, but I think it's. It's coming from a little bit of, like, I listen to 90.9 all the time, and it's like, you know, you hear Mozart, you know, K221, you're like, oh, my gosh, Mozart wrote all this.

Thank God that's still around. Oh, thank God we still have it.

Thank you. 90.9. And Brian and I love all. All of the DJs there. And just in general, the mission, I. I guess, you know, that was the thread I wanted to explore is I was a little bit interested and. And I started to, like, it was one of those things, like, as I started to arrange it out of boredom a little bit during the pandemic, like, why would you want to learn? I was bored, right? Like, I was working a ton. Ironically, like, my private lesson studio exploded because everybody was bored and wanted to learn an instrument. But I. I was bored. And I was like. I was also like, you know what? Like, why haven't I figured out I bought, like, a home recording studio setup. It's still in the box, like, from Sweetwater, like, 18 months later, I'm like, guess what's coming out? I'm going to figure out Home recording, jumped in, downloaded Logic. It's like, I'm going to figure out YouTube. Okay. I have to make music. We had to produce online church services. So some of it was like, I was forced to, you know, for, like, some of my gigs, you know, teaching and church. But then I was like, why can't I do something? You know, I'm always going to YouTube and like, spending, you know, in time, other people might. Might relate to that. Especially if you play music, you know, you can really go down the rabbit hole watching great players or, and, or of course, great interviewers on YouTube that are providing great questions. So that's a little bit of where that thread came from.

That's great. I just installed Logic on my new Mac and learned that because I paid for it before and I had it on my 2010 MacBook. All I had to do was go into the App Store and say, download it again. And it was there. And I swear I just became a Mac advocate. I was like, I've been PC my whole life. And I'm like, can you imagine when you would have to do that on a Windows machine?

Oh, it would be terrible. And I actually love living in both ecosystems.

Yeah.

You know, the best and the worst part of Mac is they really do everything to keep you all Mac. But there is a lot of stuff, especially for those of us that are doing home recording and wanting to do it quickly. I do mostly home recording, just myself.

This gets to another thing you said in my primary questions. You said the playing isn't the hardest part. And that's a common theme across most musicians. But it's the time management and being, you know, your own. Everything you're teaching, recording, parenting. And we Talked about the YouTube thing before, the self promotion, keeping up with the tech. I mean, what does a Tuesday look like for Max?

Well, today, this is a pleasure, getting to do this on a Tuesday. A lot of times I exercise and I'll teach a remote lesson. I've been really fortunate. I plugged into Arts Wave a couple years ago, and so, you know, I've been getting called to do these great daytime Arts Waves gigs. I'm going to be at Fountain Square, the third lobby for an hour, doing that a few weeks ago at cbg. That's not always the case. I have my kids up. One daughter's already at camp. My other two teenagers can kind of figure it out. You know, I'm usually on them to get their practicing done in the morning. So if you hear some clarinet, that's one of them. It really flexes, you know. So a lot of times, you know, I will tend to work, perform on the weekend, especially right now during summer wedding season. Been doing that, you know, frequently though. What's great during the day is I can be home, especially during the school year when my kids get on the bus and off the bus. And I value that a lot. And then I have an opportunity working as an adjunct at CCM where I can go to work while they're at school and earn some daytime money, but still make it time to come home. Something. A skill I've learned. I've learned how to cook, you know, so I'm like the main cook in the house. Great. Super fun.

We have that in common.

Yeah. So I really enjoy that. You know, I'm great at following directions, but I've gotten good enough. I can improvise a little bit now. Yeah. So I've sort of enjoyed trying to like, you know, go outside and just stare at the trees and the flowers for like 10 minutes and like not do anything. But I do feel like a low level stress in the background. And I felt this way the whole time. Like there's always that naggling voice. You should be practicing. In fact, in one of my great old band spaces, bbg, Brian Bachelor, greater great keyboard player in the area. He and I, Aaron Jacobs, Phil Tipton, back in the day, formed a core group called Eclipse. And it was a great prog rock group. We brought on some rappers. We added, you know, the vocal element. But where I'm going with this is our rehearsal space was a spot in Mount Adams. There was a cutout of Eric Kunstel and then somebody had put the quotation next to his mouth. You should be practicing. And it was Eric Kunsel wearing the Vampire Pops thing, looking very serious. So we always had Eric staring at us. You should be practicing. But it's also great. I've also gotten old enough to know like, hey, you can't take the guitar every trip. You know, sometimes it's great to sit it down and then pick it up a few days later. But 99% of the days the guitar's in my hands before 9am yeah, over.

The course of my life, that has not been a problem with a piano or a keyboard. But now they're getting lighter and better. So it is a thing. You can take it with you.

You know, it's so funny just to hop on something as a sidecar. Oftentimes I feel like the biggest requirement for me at a gig is the physical requirement now.

Oh, sure.

Loading my gear in, taking it up the stairs, hoping there's a ramp. Especially when I play solo, I bring a PA with me, not just a tiny amp or if I'm going with a band, I usually have a few boxes and an amp with me. And so it's one of the reasons I try to stay in shape, I think.

Yeah, you pointed working with a trainer. I'm in the gym usually three to four times a week, and I can say I can point to the one arm row as the savior of the universe when it comes. You got to lift that keyboard. So it's really been helpful, and I didn't think it was possible at my age. Well, you're really open. I love the community. There's a lot of good themes, but that openness and that ability to connect, you know, you've also been burned a lot of ways. Not. Not paid, canceled last minute because of a football game, equipment damage. Is there anything that you can point to that still kind of gets under your skin in terms of getting burned?

I think there's just maybe a general life thing here, which is always, remember, you're never too old to do something stupid or to have somebody do something stupid adjacent to you. And, you know, sometimes it's just like the random. I value communication, so I don't like it when I'm told one thing and then I show up and then it changes. I was asked to play with the violinist last year sometime for a really nice private event, and it was like some classical music. She sent it to me. Totally in my wheelhouse. Love that stuff. I'm like, you called the right person excited to work with you. And she's like, great. And we're going to rehearse at her house, and I get a call like, oh, we're going to go rehearse at the venue. Guess who shows up early. Like I did on this podcast for a long time, at least. So I'm there first, and I'm getting talked to. Like, I'm the person and asked a lot of critical questions, and I'm trying to do my best to sort of deflect or half answer. And then the lady shows up, and then it's like, oh, now we're going to play for her. I was like, well, we didn't talk about that.

Wow.

And. And then I found myself, you know, I was like, I just feel really uncomfortable with this. Like, this is your gig. But you showed up 30 minutes late to our rehearsal, and now you're mad at me because I answered. Was trying to answer some questions or made some suggestions. So I left. Like, that's like, you know, and that wasn't that long ago. It was a few years ago. And I won't say who it was. I'm sure she's an amazing violinist, but I was like, you know, I don't need it.

Right?

You know, and so that was just the case where I remember, like, hey, anytime something can happen, you know, sometimes we. You play with people for a while and then. And then they don't call you back anymore. There's things you feel like, you know, jilted right now, though, in a good way. Why it works with my lifestyle, you know, aside from, I guess, the Jack Garrett Band, I don't really feel like I have a. A steady band that I perform with in terms of the rock pop sense, you know, which is. Which is great for everybody who needs a guitar player, you know, like the. The commercials where they have the guys doing the taxes and the wife's like, you're doing it wrong. I'm calling in the sub, and, like, the NFL sub walks in like, Jacoby Brissette, and he's like, oh, you missed this deduction, you know, so it's kind of how my life's been about the past four years. I feel like I'm the sub, you know, or like, soccer, World cup, you know, hey, get Max off the bench. He's there. He's gonna kick the ball.

Well, what I appreciate is that you're, you know, you're recognizing there are situations you just don't want to be in. I. Jen Deal was on my broadcast, my podcast a few episodes ago, and he said, he's an hour early guy, and it was really great to hear that because I've always been an hour early guy. And, you know, my domestic situation wonders why. You know, it's like, why. Why are you leaving soon? Part of it is to deal with those business things, but also I need to transition from roadie to musician. Although I'm really good at it now. It's like NASCAR pit stop. But, you know, that's the thing. I'm going to put a better product forward if I have that time. To transition from lifting heavy things and setting up and being that technician to getting into an artist who wants to engage in that conversant, remarkable conversation with the people. Keeping up with technology is one of your challenges. I gotta ask, where does AI land with you as a working Musician. Is it a threat, a tool, or is it just noise?

I think it could be a little bit of all those things. I think there's things that are amazing about it. I think there's things that are super scary about it. I think we've already seen some of the negative things with people who are not artists leveraging AI to take over other artist accounts or try to make money generating fake bans and having a bot listen to that fake ban. So there's definitely, without a doubt, some nefarious actors. I think the thing that's most scary about it is the scale and the rate in which it's going. On the flip side, I think there's some real positive things about it where it can be helpful to ask questions. So it's a little bit like ti85 calculator. Up to the user can do all these things. The Internet, up to the user can do all these things. You can drive a car up to the user, somebody can drive carefully, or somebody can drive out of control. There should be more regulations. I am a fan. I think our government is really dropping the ball on this. I don't think anybody would take any issue with that. In fact, if anything, I think they're knocking down too many barriers and maybe making a little too easy in that space for nefarious actors to do things. I mean, this is just my feeling and instinct and kind of how I'm seeing things, you know, play out with. With the news. My hope is, though, that, like, there's going to be like, some meeting ground, because just like the Internet, the genie is out of the bottle with AI. I feel, personally, while I am not going to have it write music for me or do things for me, I can have it be a tool, an assistant, a butler, and I can try some things. There's also some things, too, if were to really get into a more granular level that we've already been using. So anybody's already been using plugins and have already, or amp sims and stuff. In a small sense, that's the roots of AI. What I think is most important is just the creative thing, where AI has generated its brain from looking at everybody's content on the Internet and a lot of times often using more famous people's content more frequently, and they're not really getting compensated for that.

Right.

And I think it. I think it's scary. I also think it's scary like the voice thing. You know, you can sing and then be like, I want to sound my voice like Matthew Bellamy for Muse. And how does Matthew Bellamy feel about that? You know? And I think what you're noticing for most major players in the space is like, they. They want some guardrails up, and I think that's fine. You know, I think if you paid to use Matthew Bellamy's voice like a plugin, and then he was. Got paid, you know, like, I think there's like, a way it's. To me, it's like if, like, we need to pay the creators. I think the last thing I'll kind of say for now, though, I love talking about this with people in real life. So appreciative that you're asking the question, because some people just come at it as a hard no. And I respect that. And I. And I totally get where that comes from. And, like, there's part of me that, like, I have to kind of fight that instinct, too. I have to kind of like, look, you know, I feel it's a little bit like hydrogen bomb now. It's tainted everything, you know?

Right.

My big worry is that it's going to stifle creativity from the younger generation. Like, pop music in particular has gotten simpler. It's gotten more predictable. It's gotten boring. I'll say in an ironic way. I think the most interesting stuff, if you get out of the pop category and get more into the niche, small indie stuff, the indie rock stuff and the progressive rock has continued to grow. But it's so hard because there's just so little money to be made. So it's really. All of these are passion projects. So that's.

But you're right, there's not going to be a Steely Dan coming out of AI You know, you're not going to have any of that.

Certainly not going to age out of that. Yeah, right. You're not going to get that, or. I just think I'm a huge Chili Peppers fan. You're not going to get under the bridge generated by AI well, to be.

Slightly encouraging, I do have a comment. In one of my shorts I produced yesterday, there was a kid. The short was about AI it was a Joe Cowles promo. And he said, young people are really railing against AI They want real. And actually, that's a recurring thing. I think Phil Carrillo in his episode said the same thing his nephew said. We want real and live performance. And I'm wondering if you're seeing that. I'm kind of seeing that. Where people are really valuing the authentic attempt to create music. I think it's that, you know, we have computers calling balls and Strikes to make games perfect. And AI kind of does the same thing with music. Even in the classical realm. It's never been about being perfect. It's about witnessing the attempt to be.

I mean, I think that's part of it. I just, you know, I mean, right. We both are. Miles Davis fans. Made everybody kind of point to this. You know, Miles, there's technical mistakes all over his albums, you know, but they're beautiful, they're perfect. We wouldn't want it any other way. Great singers that have rough voices. Tom Waits, you know, not. Not perfect, but you listen. Johnny Cash, everybody loves Johnny, you know, but like Johnny's voice is beautiful, but it's not perfect. But what's great about it is it's like the funky spoon in the kitchen that you're always stirring everything with because it's your favorite. And it's not like the best one or the newest one or stainless steel. Those are all great too. Right. So I really value that and I try to in a silver lining sort of thinking myself and like other artists, like we're all kind of that way, you know, like everybody has. Well, I shouldn't say everybody, but like there's people who are working on that type of capacity. So, you know, working towards that, you know. Yeah, like wanting. Wanting to. I don't know, maybe I'm not expressing myself super well here, but. Well.

But you did say earlier you're interested in composing and writing and that which pushed you into the educational realm. And in composing and writing, you brought up Tom Waits. Step right up. You know, Johnny Cash and the combination thing that he did with Nine Inch Nails Hurt, I think is what the song was called.

Yeah, I ranged that one.

You're not going to get that out of AI. And I think that might be the goal is I'm going to write something. Good luck, AI. Good luck making this right. Right. It's not going to be possible.

Yeah, well, I think about it. I mean, AI right now can already make a guitar instrumental out of any song you want. It's not going away. I don't want to be afraid. I want to ask questions. In fact, I get that from my wife. She is like the world's best question asker. It's in a great way. That's why she's good at her job. And so I want to ask questions about it. I want to be curious in a positive way. But you got to. I will say this. At some point, you have to just make decisions on what you think works for you. That might not Work for somebody else. If somebody disagrees with it, that's their right. That's the wonderful country we live in. And so I respect everybody who is like a hard no to AI, period, ever. And if that is like where you stand, that's great. And then I'm okay with people who are curious. I'm not okay with people who are like nefarious in this space and want to use it for harm and mal intent and profit. And unfortunately, I think it's like one of these cases, like, you know, like driving a car. But in this case we don't have a license to use AI. You have to get a license to drive a car. You have to get a license to own a gun. You don't have a license to use AI.

Well, you have that openness, that curiosity, that community, connection thing. The problem I have is people who will reject people who are open to and who want to be inquisitive and curious. Because as soon as you have that such anger that you're now rejecting community because they might be open to thinking about this thing, it's actually owning you. That's.

I know. And that's just, it's heartbreaking, you know, it makes nobody feels good about that, really. We would all agree right now more than ever in 2026 in America, like, we need to find things that bring us together and we need to be able to have like, conversations about things that we think differently about. Like we would about having dinner. We might want different things for dinner, but we're not going to like, run away from the conversation. If somebody says, I want tacos, you know, I don't want to be too broad with it, but like, I kind of want to be broad with it. And I think like, my attitude is a lot of what we get back from the universe and from life is what we put out. And so if we're going to always be critical and negative and judgy and making walls and boundaries, and I won't do this, and I can't do this, and I would never do this. That is not me. I am like, I will try. I won't say I'll try anything once because that's obviously not totally me. But I am open to learning more in the broad sense. What I'm looking for is to be open and say, let the wind blow me. Left with the wind, blow me. I've like the, my best life experiences have been that like, musically and in life, like, just like Harry Potter fans, like thinking you just drink the good luck potion Right. And just, like, let the vibes happen and, like, smile and, like, go with. Go with the flow is a frequently said thing in my household.

Love it. Thanks for talking with me today. I know you've got a gig and I want to let you go, but I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Max.

It's been a real pleasure. You asked great questions. This is a great podcast. I really think we need to have more good conversations like this for everybody. Hopefully for you listening, you found a little bit of things that are interesting in my story or helpful or hopefully even inspirational. Thank you so much and best of luck with this podcast.

Thanks, Max. Appreciate it. That was Max. Guys. Find his solo guitar arrangements on YouTube. At Nylon and Leather. And if you're in Cincinnati, go catch him live. If this one hit home, send it to one musician who needs to hear it. And if you want to know what you're walking into before you say yes, the load in the pay who books the room. That's why I built MoneyGigs. It's free on iOS android. Enter invite code invhyp and max guys to unlock the public menu database for just two bucks a month. You're not just paying for it, you're helping build it. I'm Cliff Adams. See you at the next gig. Hey, folks. So I tried to gain support for the podcast by giving you a subscription that unlocked episodes three days before the release date, but you didn't care, and I understand you're just really patient. So now when you support the show directly, subscribe on Buzzsprout. You'll get at least one extra episode every month that you won't hear anywhere. Else, and possibly another one. I mean, if I look in, you know, the inbox and I see a. Bunch of subscriptions, it's gonna be very motivating. So I'll work more if you help me. Links in the description. Also, if you just want to drop me a line, it's cliff@themoneygigs.com and don't forget to visit trifora.com/themoneygigs to pick up a batch of the finest THC beverages offered at a discount.